http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/06/palins-church-promoting-conference-aimed-at-converting-gays/
This is from FOX News, not that I trust their view overmuch.
It still amazes me that, in the 21st Century, the Right Wing Christian Control Party (that would be the Republicans) would still be trying to interfere in the private lives of American citizens. I wish these religious nut bags would just understand their own Bible, and leave honest America to honest Americans.
This is an excellent example of how the Republicans are pushing a religious doctrine of hate towards anyone who is “different” or does not know Jesus as a personal savior. I have to ask, how are Christian fundamentalists different from Islamic fundamentalists who drive airplanes into buildings? Is it just that the Republicans haven’t gotten the balls together to start hijacking planes, yet?
Islamic fundamentalists hate anyone who doesn’t accept Allah as God. (They are infidels and you can kill them.)
Christian fundamentalists hate anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus as God. (They take rights away and treat them as pariahs. They would probably kill them if they could get away with it, or at least, put them in “reeducation camps” and tell them about Jesus in a hope of saving them. The unsavable, in their view, would be killed.)
Gee. Not much of a difference, is there? I mean, at least Islamic fundamentalists are honest about what they intend to do to non-believers. Republicans/Christian fundamentalists are disingenuous about their goals. They want to “save” you from yourself, because they don’t think you’ve got the brains to think for yourself.
Your stupid, in their eyes. Plain and simple.
An excerpt:
Palin reversed her position and vetoed the bill after the state attorney general said it was unconstitutional. But her reluctant support didn’t win fans among Alaska’s gay population, said Scott Turner, a gay activist in Anchorage.
So she getws shot down legally, she’ll try to “pray the gay away” instead.
Whatever happened to God loves everyone? Isn’t that in the Bible, too? I guess her Bible reads like a manifesto of hatred instead of the loving word of God it is supposed to be.
Americans must move past hese divisive stances and embrace the future. It is the only way this country will survive.
The House of Goonery 
Wow! You’re slinging a whole bunch of random mud against Christians and hoping some of it will stick! Your arguments are radically untrue, and demonstrate a complete lack of understanding about Christianity.
While Islamic fundamentalists ARE told in the Koran to “kill the infidel,” Jesus Christ tells his followers to “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” Christians are never instructed to kill their enemies. Good grief!
You said: “Whatever happened to God loves everyone? Isn’t that in the Bible, too? I guess her Bible reads like a manifesto of hatred instead of the loving word of God it is supposed to be.”
I would respond that yes, God does love everyone. But just like a good parent who makes their child do things that child doesn’t want to because the parent knows it’s good for the child (eat your vegetables, go to bed on time, exercise, do homework), so also Jesus asks his followers to do things that may not be popular or fun, but are good for his children in the long run. It’s not that God is unloving; he’s just setting limits like any reasonable parent does. We may not understand why he sets the limits he does, but we trust that he loves us, and that he only tells us what is best for us.
Many Americans today vehemently disagree with those Biblical limits set in the Bible, especially in the areas of abortion and sexuality. But Christians have a larger worldview; they don’t just focus on their lives here and now. It’s not about this world; it’s about the eternal world to come, the world that will never end.
If one doesn’t believe in that eternal world, but instead believes that this world is all there is, then it makes sense that one would view Christians as hate-filled and divisive. But even if one doesn’t agree with Christianity, know that Christians don’t hate gays and don’t hate people who have abortions. (Obviously, there are always extremists, but those don’t represent the vast majority of Christianity.) Christians push Christian public policies out of a belief that living life according to God’s rules creats a better and more stable society.
Historically, as civilizations have moved away from traditional morals and became more self-centered and corrupt, those civilizations collapsed (ie. the Roman Empire). No one wants to see that happen with the USA, although likely it is inevitable. Christians are also told in the Bible that the world will get more evil and corrupt as Judgement Day approaches. So, while we still try to live as Christian of a life as possible, we recognize that it’s going to become harder and harder.
I believe you are an atheist: Have you ever read any books by Lee Strobel, such as “The Case for Christ” or “The Case for Faith”? He was an investigative journalist and atheist who studied the evidence for Christianity and wrote books about what he learned.
It may be safer to believe that God doesn’t exist, but shouldn’t you at least examine the evidence first, just to make sure you’re not metaphorically sticking your head in the sand? Because if you’re right and there’s no god, then none of this matters; this life is all there is. You suceed in that you lived your life on your own terms, and I have wasted my life trying to follow an invented God. But if you’re wrong and there really IS a God, then I am safe in heaven — and you’re in hell. Atheism is a gamble. Are you comfortable with this risk that you’re taking? Becaue if there really is a God, a God who created heaven and earth and everything in them, why should he let you into his heaven? He demands perfection, and none of us can do that. Thankfully, Jesus is the substitute for the world, who lived a perfect life for us that we could not live, and died on the cross to pay the debt for sins that we could not pay. If you believe that, as simple as it is, heaven is yours.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)
God bless you!
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No, I’m not an atheist. If you read the “About Me” page or the “On Paganism” page, you’ll more clearly see my views. (And no, I’ve not read the books you listed.)
As to the other parts of your post, you said:
“Wow! You’re slinging a whole bunch of random mud against Christians and hoping some of it will stick! Your arguments are radically untrue, and demonstrate a complete lack of understanding about Christianity.”
First, when I posted in your blog, I did so in a peaceful way and didn’t attack you for your beliefs or perceived intelligence level. I would appreciate the same consideration in return.
Second, you praise Saah Palin for standing up for her beliefs, then turn around and blast me for mine? How hypocritical of you.
But let’s put that aside for a moment.
If Christians don’t hate gays, as you say, then why don’t you (you as in Christians in general) allow them in church without giving up who they are?
If Christians don’t hate people who have had abortions, then why is so much time spent taking these rights away from women?
Just curious.
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I apologize for sounding so harsh. My intent was to criticize only your arguments and lack of understanding about Christianity, but certainly not your intelligence level. Lack of understanding does not mean lack of intelligence, and I can tell that you’re intelligent. The written word always sounds different than the spoken word, I guess. I do want to compliment you on your ability to keep the focus on the issues and not criticize the writer. It seems I have more work to do in developing that skill (says Emily as she extends her hand in a friendly handshake).
In answer your questions:
1) “If Christians don’t hate gays, then why don’t Christians (in general) allow them in church without giving up who they are?”
Because we believe that homosexuality is a sin, not merely a choice. We believe that circumstances in a person’s life (ie. abuse, lack of parenting, particular circle of friends) might lead a person to see being gay as a desirable life. But it’s not the lifestyle that God wants his children to have, and God expressly prohibits it in the Bible. I, personally, feel very sorry for people in a gay lifestyle, and I wish there were more organizations available for people to help overcome a less-than-idea past and leave a gay lifestyle.
2) “If Christians don’t hate people who have had abortions, then why is so much time spent taking these rights away from women?”
Because we believe that the baby has rights, too. Mother and baby are equal in the eyes of God. It’s not just about the mother and what she wants. It’s also about the baby. Once the mother has made the decision to have sex (and we’ll leave the rape/incest question out of this particular aspect of the discussion, because “hard cases make bad law”) then she should be willing to accept the consequences of that decision.
We live in a society where people want to live however they choose, but that’s not how Christians live. We answer to God, and while his ways may not be popular, that’s what we believe.
Finally, I apologize for being ignorant about the difference between an atheist and a pagan. I honestly thought they were one and the same. I guess you learn something new every day, right? 😉
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I’m very glad that you returned to my blog and cleared that up. I accept your apology. Perhaps I could’ve worded the initial post better.
In any case, as to the “lack of understanding about Christianity,” if you’ve read my “About Paganism” page you’ll have seen that I was, indeed, a Christian at one point. And, believe it or not, I own several Bibles. (I’ve even read them. 🙂 )
As to the gay lifestyle being a choice, I completely disagree. Gay people can no more change who they are as gay people than white people can change being white. It’s not a choice, its how they are made. I read on your blog that you live in San Francisco. My recommendation is, go down to the Castro District and ask a couple of gay people to explain their situations to you. (I’m not gay, so I don’t have that experience to share with you.)
Interestingly enough, when I was in college (a Methodist college, at that) I heard a statistic that has stuck with me to this day. It was: 22% of all seagulls are gay. If that’s true, and I’ve not verified it as such, but if it is, then wouldn’t that be an endorsement for the gay lifestyle, seeing as how God created everything (including gay people)? (Not trying to start another fight here, just asking an honest question.)
EDIT: I’ve found the link I was referencing here: Applying the term Homosexual to Animals. The number, according to the article is 10% to 15%. Just wanted to correct my numbers. ~Goon.
As to abortion, I agree that people should accept the consequences of their actions. Wholeheartedly agree there. (That, interestingly enough, is a central belief of many Pagan belief systems.)
However, by forcing the mother to accept the child, that could (not in all cases) cause more problems than it solves. Another extreme example, say a woman gets pregnant who’s addicted to crack. Her baby is going to be born addicted to crack. Probably extremely mentally retarded, which means its quality of life is not much higher than a pickles. Would it not be better to simply release the soul to go to God/begin again? (Depending on your belief, and truthfully, either would be preferable to living a life of so poor a quality.) I think it would be cruel to do anything else, certainly cruel to make it live a life that won’t be much more rewarding than barely being aware of itself.
I know that may sound extreme to you, and it is. but I’ve seen these children born of crack addicted mothers. It’s not pretty. Some of them are born so addicted to crack and other drugs that they will literally NEVER have a chance at even a special education level life. They are like walking zombies. Have you ever seen one?
You Said: “We live in a society where people want to live however they choose, but that’s not how Christians live. We answer to God, and while his ways may not be popular, that’s what we believe.”
Believe it or not, I applaud you for it. It does take a lot of courage to stand up and say “I believe. . .” when its the unpopular view. I’ve experienced it first hand.
As I said in my first comment on your site, we have vastly different views on religion. That’s okay. Doesn’t mean we can’t be friends. 🙂
If you like, please feel free to follow any of the links I’ve got here under Pagan Links. I can recommend a great forum site if you want to talk with Pagans directly. Of course, feel free to ask me whatever questions you like. I’ll be happy to answer them, if I can.
Blessings.
Goon
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Boy, we’re hitting two of the biggest hot-button topics with our discussions, aren’t we? 🙂 Abortion and homosexuality – it doesn’t get bigger than that!
Homosexuality is a tough one. I sang with the San Francisco Symphony Chorus (first soprano!) for two seasons, and I can tell you, outside of the SF Gay Men’s Chorus, it doesn’t get any gay-er than that! 🙂 I also have had some personal experiences with homosexuality that I’m not going to mention in respect for their privacy (because other family members might find what I’m writing here!), but I DO have “gay experience.” I realize that the vast majority of homosexuals today feel that they were born that way and that they didn’t have a choice, and I want to reiterate that I feel NO hatred towards those who define themselves as gay. None whatsoever. I do feel very, very sorry for them, and I wish I could help. However, thanks to our modern culture, few gays see their homosexuality as a problem, as a disorder, and few seek help escaping such a lifestyle.
I think the historical perspective is important. It’s only been in the last 50-100 years that homosexuality has even begun to be considered in the realm of normal. Before that time it was always considered an abberation. The world has changed more in the last 100 years than ever before in the world’s history, but I think it’s awfully egotistical for society today to think that NOW, in our scientific and enlightened time, NOW homosexuality is okay, even though the rest of the world has always thought homosexuality was wrong.
So, throughout the world’s history, homosexuality has been viewed as something outside the realm of normal. It’s only now that people are encouraged to accept that lifestyle as normal. I just don’t buy it. First of all, God’s word says that it’s a sin. Everything he says is only for our good, so if he says it’s a sin, I trust that. Secondly, it just doesn’t seem normal. The plumbing isn’t meant to work that way. Plus, a whole bunch of health problems are more prevalent with the gay lifestyle that heterosexual couples don’t experience, problems that come from the plumbing going the wrong way, as well as STD’s and HIV.
But what about the argument that homosexuals are truly born that way? I don’t know much about genetics or that sort of stuff, but here’s my thoughts: If my memory serves me correctly, it seems that there’s a gene that predisposes someone to becoming an alcoholic. There is research that shows there is genetic predisposition to other diseases as well. Now, I’m not calling homosexuality a disease persay, but I would call it a disorder, a disorder that can be aggravated by a less-than-loving childhood experience. So, while research may some day unequivocally prove that there IS a “gay gene,” it still doesn’t make it normal or a healthy thing. One wouldn’t tell an alcoholic, “It’s okay. You have an alcoholic gene. Just go ahead. It’s hard-wired into you to be an alcoholic.” No, you would work extra-hard to help that person overcome that problem, because you know that alcoholism isn’t healthy and can kill you prematurely. Well, homosexuality isn’t healthy and can kill you prematurely, too. It’s not just as simple as a lifestyle choice. It’s not like choosing to live in SF versus living in Georgia. 😉
Or, consider how my husband put it: Name one other behavior that can kill you in which we would allow people to freely engage. (Yeah, he’s much more succinct of a writer than I am!)
But if God created someone that way, then shouldn’t they be able to act on it? I think the problem is in the question. God never created us to be sinful beings. We have inherited our sinful condition thanks to the sin of Adam and Eve. Everything in this world is tainted by sin, even down to the cells of our body. We are sinners in that we actively (and passively) sin every day, plus we live in this world filled with the effects of sin. Even if we somehow managed to keep our thoughts and words and actions totally pure, we would still experience the effects of sin. Romans 8:22 says, “We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.”
So, while people may indeed be born “gay,” and/or be stuck in a childhood full of abuse and abnormal parent-child relationships, I would say that still doesn’t excuse the homosexual lifestyle. It explains it, but it doesn’t excuse it. It’s wrong, and one can’t get away from that. On a personal note, my mother was abused physically and emotionally by her mother, and thanks to that abuse/neglect, she was also was put in a position where she was abused sexually by a neighbor boy at a young age. When my mother started psychotherapy (after my youngest brother was a teenager), her psychologist told her that with all the abuse she went through growing up, he was surprised that my mother hadn’t become a lesbian. So, I personally have a lot of compassion for gays and lesbians. I realize that many of them have had horrible lifestories, experiences so bad that homosexuality seems like a good thing to do. That is SO sad!
At the same time, I realize that many heterosexuals get angry and mean towards homosexuals, because they don’t understand why anyone would choose that lifestyle. Those actions aren’t correct, either. All sin, no matter what, needs to be dealt with lovingly, not with insults and put-downs, but with caring and concern for people’s physical and spiritual welfare. I am sad to admit that I don’t often see that among the greater Christian community today.
The gay lifestyle may often seem “gay” and free, but it’s really not. And AIDS can be a horrible way to die. My husband spent some time visiting a man dying of AIDS up in SF, and my husband said that it was just awful. The HIV, as well as attacking this man’s body, had also attacked his brain, and he had the mental faculties of a small child. It was really sad.
So, to sum up, I realize there are factors that might predispose someone to a gay lifestyle, but it doesn’t make those factors good. Living a homosexual lifestyle is wrong, and Christians should lovingly try to help people overcome that lifestyle rather than just yelling at and/or mocking them about it. That doesn’t help anything, and it’s certainly not “speaking the truth in love” (I can’t find the Bible reference for that verse! ugh!) to your neighbor.
Hope that helps clarify where I am coming from. If you’re interested, I belong to a conservative Lutheran church called the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS). Our website is http://www.wels.net and there’s also a Q&A section where you could look up “offical” answers to these kinds of questions at http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1517&cuQA_qaID=1 If you’re interested. 🙂
I gotta go be a mom now. Enough typing. If I have a moment later I’ll comment on your “crack baby” comment. Well, I guess I can say it briefly here: when God’s laws aren’t followed, it makes for a host of other problems, doesn’t it? I don’t deny that crack babies are a drain on the system and will have a poor quality of life. But I still maintain that all God-given life is precious. This situation reminds me of another Bible passage. Again, I can’t find the reference for it (urg!) but it’s something that God says to the children of Israel, telling them what will happen if they don’t follow his 10 Commandments. God says, “I will carry the sins of their fathers down to the 3rd and 4th generation of those who don’t believe in me.” What God is saying is that sin has consequences, not just for the sinner him/herself, but also for the people around him/her and for any children, grandchildren, etc. Sin creates bad situations with no easy answers. And, again, “hard cases make bad law.” I don’t have a good answer for the crack babies question, except that any crack babies/children that my life comes in contact with, I will try to give them an extra amount of love and affection, knowing what horrible circumstances from which they have come.
Now, I definitely have to go do my momma thing! Have a good day!
~ Emily
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Your Husband Said: “Or, consider how my husband put it: Name one other behavior that can kill you in which we would allow people to freely engage. (Yeah, he’s much more succinct of a writer than I am!)”
Joining the Armed Services; joining the police force; driving to work; riding in an airplane; taking a train; smoking. I could list more, but I think you see the point. (And you’re a better writer than you give yourself credit for. 😉 )
There’s more I want to say, but I’m going to hold off for now and get my thoughts in order.
Thanks for commenting.
Goon
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I had a few more thoughts on the “crack babies” topic. How do we, as a society, decide which lives are worth living and which lives are not? Who determines what an acceptable quality of life actually is? As an extreme example, remember what Hitler did. Besides killing Jews, he also killed all mentally incompetent, gays, and I believe there were other people that he deemed unfit to live, too. I certainly don’t agree with ANY of that, and I imagine you don’t either. But, when a society decides that certain people, no matter how young (or old, or sick), don’t have lives worth living, it becomes a slippery slope, leading to places where no one wants to go.
If you ask a person with Down’s syndrome if they’d rather not have been born, I don’t think they would say Yes. I know a few people with Down’s syndrome, and while their lives are not the same as mine, I’m always amazed at how happy they usually are, and now much joy they bring to their families and friends. Who would deny them that chance at life, just because it won’t be a “normal” life? And what is “normal” anyway? 😉
I know, Down’s syndrome is not the same thing as a crack baby, but the principle is the same. And I believe we have to live our lives based on principles, and handle the special cases as they arise.
Off to make supper…
~ Emily
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You said: “And what is “normal” anyway?
Christians. Muslims. Pagans. Atheists. Straights. Pacific Islanders. Homosexuals. Whites. Blacks. Latinos. I could go on, but I think you see my point.
Down’s Syndrome is not the same thing as a crack baby. First, they are treated differently by our society. (Downs is more acceptable). The distinction is already there.
Most crack babies are simply ignored by our society. To many people, they don’t exist, and never will. Until our society changes to include everyone equally.
This is also the answer to your question ‘Who decides who lives?’ Society will.
How? We have to change to a more inclusive, rather than exclusive, society. We have to stop fighting over who’s right about religion, abortion, government, and everything else. We MUST in order for America to survive in some form.
And America will survive in some form. But I doubt, seriously, that the America your children inherit from you will resemble the America you were born into.
At the risk of sounding overly poetic, change is on the wind.
Another thing I want to address is this:
You Said: And I believe we have to live our lives based on principles, and handle the special cases as they arise.
First off, I agree. I’ve always lived my life by my principles. But the main point I wanted to make is everyone is a special case. As I said in my “Pro-Choice is Better” post, ‘we cannot make broad strokes across the mosaic of America. Not every painting looks good with the same color paint.’ (Paraphrased.)
You Also Said: As an extreme example, remember what Hitler did.
I do remember. Hitler amended Germany’s laws to outlaw homosexuals, Jewish art, businesses, and other rights. I hope you see the disturbing parallels we’ve got here.
Taking away the right to marry for Homosexuals is a broad stroke that doesn’t look good on America. Think about this: the government amended the Constitution to strip civil rights from an entire segment of the population. Think about that.
In other words, under the old Pre-Bush Constitution, homosexuals had the right to marry. All the state laws were unconstitutional. Now, with the amendment in place, homosexuals, AMERICANS have had their rights stripped from them.
I’ll refrain from saying anymore. I think, I hope I’ve made my point.
Enjoy your supper.
Goon
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